I could write a novel commenting on this (in a good way!) but short of that...
* My hand shot up right away
* The atheist thought the problem concept was Original Sin rather that Perfection? Dude that's my problem with atheists in a nutshell right there!
* The problem is the idea of perfection itself. It's a poorly formed idea in the first place. It is necessarily in the eye of the beholder, and one man's utopia is another's hell.
* Specifically, I think Brave New World was a successful utopia, and we only view it as a dystopia because we actually value a bit of struggle.
* Given the above, Christian salvation is less about ending suffering than it is changing our relationship to suffering. Utopia comes from within, and exists wherever you carry it.
Thanks so much for sharing, Jack! I’m not sure I agree with all your points, but it’s fantastic to have differing perspectives come in and think about things in different ways. Dialogue helps us all home our ideas and get closer to the truth.
That said, I really like what you wrote about Christianity trying to change our relationship to suffering rather than eliminate it altogether. Avoiding suffering completely is impossible, but if we alter our mindsets then we can ‘rejoice’ when we suffer. There’s a lot to unpack there for sure, but I think you’ve hit on a really important idea.
I like contrasting Christianity with Buddhism on this front, not in a judgmental way, just because both religions see the connection between attachment and suffering, but they go such radically different directions from that common observation. My understanding of Buddhism (as an outsider) is that it seeks to end the cycle of suffering by letting go of attachment. Contrast with Christianity, which celebrates love (a subset of attachment) and hence embraces the suffering that goes with it. There's a comprehensive unity to the metaphysics you get when they're taken together that frames a big spiritual question without answering it.
We also need to watch out for suffering without love, which is just kind of the worst of both worlds. Cause and effect are really important here--love leads to suffering, but suffering doesn't generally lead to love.
I could write a novel commenting on this (in a good way!) but short of that...
* My hand shot up right away
* The atheist thought the problem concept was Original Sin rather that Perfection? Dude that's my problem with atheists in a nutshell right there!
* The problem is the idea of perfection itself. It's a poorly formed idea in the first place. It is necessarily in the eye of the beholder, and one man's utopia is another's hell.
* Specifically, I think Brave New World was a successful utopia, and we only view it as a dystopia because we actually value a bit of struggle.
* Given the above, Christian salvation is less about ending suffering than it is changing our relationship to suffering. Utopia comes from within, and exists wherever you carry it.
Just some thoughts! Great essay!
Thanks so much for sharing, Jack! I’m not sure I agree with all your points, but it’s fantastic to have differing perspectives come in and think about things in different ways. Dialogue helps us all home our ideas and get closer to the truth.
That said, I really like what you wrote about Christianity trying to change our relationship to suffering rather than eliminate it altogether. Avoiding suffering completely is impossible, but if we alter our mindsets then we can ‘rejoice’ when we suffer. There’s a lot to unpack there for sure, but I think you’ve hit on a really important idea.
I like contrasting Christianity with Buddhism on this front, not in a judgmental way, just because both religions see the connection between attachment and suffering, but they go such radically different directions from that common observation. My understanding of Buddhism (as an outsider) is that it seeks to end the cycle of suffering by letting go of attachment. Contrast with Christianity, which celebrates love (a subset of attachment) and hence embraces the suffering that goes with it. There's a comprehensive unity to the metaphysics you get when they're taken together that frames a big spiritual question without answering it.
We also need to watch out for suffering without love, which is just kind of the worst of both worlds. Cause and effect are really important here--love leads to suffering, but suffering doesn't generally lead to love.